It seems that our government is living in a total fantasy world. They think they can MAKE MONEY out of this lunacy and that they "are being responsible" by passing this ridiculous Bill (the "emissions trading Bill") with no public consultation at all - it seems that it is yet another case of "we will do what we like and we don't care what you stupid people think". They have admitted that it will cost every NZ household dearly and cost many NZers their jobs.

This is amazing, this is despite a deadlocked select committee report and opposition complaints that taxpayers will carry a $100 billion burden.

There is not one good thing that I, or anyone else that I have discussed this with, can come up with about this Bill.

Can anyone else come up with any ideas why NZ should slavishly follow this particular UN dictat?

What I simply cannot figure out is why. Why is the government so bound and determined to override what the majority of their people are telling them, override common sense, override thousands of scientists voices saying that this a ridiculous scam and commit themselves to something that nobody at all with gain out of (except perhaps a few bureaucrats who will have a "job" created for themselves as a result_.

Here's a link to a story about the government's latest move:

Govt vows to pass climate change bill - national | Stuff.co.nz

I believe there is something bigger going on "Globally"....

Lets think about it for a second. "The world is in a flap because of "climate change", so in order to stop the climate from changing we should "TAX" everyone"? I watched some expert "twit" on Breakfast (TVNZ 1) yesterday, who was some Kyoto Protocol Guru and he failed to explain exactly where the money goes, because he didnt really know?

Essentially I believe it is Some kind of conspiracy to bankrupt countries and force some sort of "world government" and "one world currencey" etc.

Everything being proposed defies all logic?

That's a good point. Something bigger going on globally .... (thinking)

Maybe it's all a giant "jobs creations scheme". You've got a good point when you say "bankrupt countries and force some sort of "world government" and "one world currency". The only problem with that is that it leaves out the third world countries (third world countries are not part of this scam). China has decided that it is a third world country and will not have anything to do with "carbon trading". So this would bankrupt the western world and leave out all the others.

You're absolutely right about "it defies all logic". It absolutely does. I can't believe the arrogance of anyone thinking that man has the ability to alter the climate in any way. The "studies" that have said that climate change is man-made have all been proved to be deeply flawed or deliberately faked and literally thousands of scientists have come out and said that the idea of man-made climate change is prepostrous. So nobody at all (that is anybody who has put more than 2 minute's thought into it) can genuinely believe this hype.

But the biggest thing that puzzles me is that government "studies" seem to be confusing carbon dioxide with carbon monoxide. Carbon dioxide is a gas that is absolutely essential for life, every living thing produces carbon dioxide, volcanoes and the oceans produce vast amounts of it (I wonder how they're going to make the oceans pay masses of taxes) and carbon monoxide is a highly poisonous gas emmitted by burning fossil fuels.

I read the figure of "less than 50% of NZers believe that man caused climate change and yet government insists that it did. I'm sure they're taking us all for complete simpletons and lying to us bigtime, pretending that they buy into all this rubbish.

It's Y2K all over again. Somebody made megabucks out of the Y2K myth (government officially bought into that one too). The difference is that at midnight on 2000 it was obvious that it was all a scam. It will be two or three generations before it is obvious that "carbon trading schemes" are all a scam. It will be too late by then.

I also just want to say, to Everyone that takes a moment to view these posts, don't be afraid to post something.

I want everyone to offer opinions and points of view, so please post something ..... anything, ask questions, lets get talking.

I think I've figured, part of it at least, out. The reason John Key is so determined to pass this legislation - perhaps at the cost of his career - is that he is being blackmailed.

I think that is what this little paragraph in a news item of today, is saying:

"Key told farmers at the council meeting that they needed to realise that unless New Zealand had an ETS that included agriculture then international consumers would boycott their products".

However, it said something else as well, something that most of us have known only too well for some time now:

"Taxpayers are yet to wake up to the fact that the ETS is a three-letter word for tax,''

This is amazing. How selfish and greedy can you get? He is expecting farmers to pay to "cover his butt", and he is telling them "it is 'ONLY' $3000 that is being stolen from you for this stupid scam that we are too obsequious and weak-kneed to stand up against. Now we could steal more, so just be happy that we're not". Remind you of Al Cappone and his protection racket?

This attitude is just about as greedy as Helen Clark's famously silly statement when she signed the Kyoto protocol of "NZ doesn't want to miss out".

However, I found his other statements incredible, especially this one:

"The ETS would only cost the average farmer about $3000 a year by 2020 under latest estimates, Key said, which was less than the average farm would pay in ACC levies. "I think you should be much more relaxed about that."

And you know what's even more amazing? He went on to claim that the ET scam is really all about "environmentalism".

Either John Key is incredibly stupid (far too stupid to be prime minister) or he is a skilled and calculating liar. I don't know which is worse.

Here's the link to the news story that I got this from:

Fed Farmers president slams emissions scheme | Stuff.co.nz

Just one little thing that I forgot. I am wondering why this government doesn't just have the courage to stand up to the rest of the world and say "we are having nothing to do with this silly scam" (they could even use the "recession" as an excuse - none better excuse).

99.9% of the countries that are participating in this scam, and attending Copenhagen next month, must realise that it is nothing about "being responsible" or "environmentalism" or "saving the planet" (now that one makes me cringe every time I read it, it is so silly and arrogant to believe that man has the ability to "save the planet") but just a GIANT SCAM NOT UNLIKE Y2k. So if every single country would just develop a backbone and stand up to these half-wits who want to fleece our children, grandchildren and their descendents of all their money and resources, and would all "sing the same tune", John Key could even do it too.

After all, (Although I think that David Lange was a misguided twit) he stood up to the world when he declared NZ ports to be "nuclear free". So it can be done.

If anybody has any doubts at all, that this so called "emissions trading" scheme is nothing but a scam, read about how it all started with Enron in the early 1990s (or late 80s, I'm not sure). Without Enron, there would have been no bureaucrats and pseudo-scientists getting together in 1993 and working out a scam to fleece the world of mega-billions, in Kyoto in 1993, and calling it the Kyoto protocol.

I could post more info. but at this time of night I can't be bothered, but it is easy to find out stuff about this.

We are kidding ourselves if we think that John Key and other members of government don't know this, of course they do. They are just taking the public for a lot of complete morons who don't realise anything.

Back to my comments earlier about bankrupting countries:
China can't help but "Be" a part of the scam as they own a great proportion of US Debt which is growing out of control, much like our own. I think this is their trump card for now, no one is going to force them to join, because the moment they stop buying US debt, the US and the world is in REAL TROUBLE and the US need to keep up the facade that everything will be ok just a little bit longer.

Your right Bruce Countires like NZ are too scared not to be part of it. If we don’t our products and exports maybe boycott by others. When things turn bad we might not get picked to be on the "good team". Spine-less thats what we are!

Free Trade agreements will allow China etc to trade freely and bring all sorts of crap into our countries (which will temporarily cancel out any issues they had with the ETS) and being such thoughtful consumers, we will lavish in it and think it brilliant that we can now buy imitation Guuci at the local dairy. Meanwhile a strong kiwi dollar and an ever devaluing US$ will still impact heavily on our exporters (the backbone of our economy).

If countries are all sentenced to bankruptcy by continuing to print money and devalue currencies, and under the ruse of "climate change" it will level the playing field. It will create a lose lose situation for everyone. China and such can't get their debt bonds paid back, US, UK Australian etc are all bankrupt and the only solution will be to create a global currency and government.

The more I read, think and listen, it seems all these things are interlinked and almost orchestrated: The collapse of the global economy (like they didn’t see it coming?), printing of money (stimulus around the world), devaluing currencies, climate change scam, ETS, Kyoto Protocol, Free Trade Agreements, Countries - banks and citizens continue to BORROW more money that we don’t have (why are we allowing this – it makes no sense), slowly governments around the world are passing sneaking bits of legislation to remove civil rights right under our noses (anti-smacking, government surveilence etc thats just in NZ This will ensure they have full control of the people, anyone that disagrees can be "legally" dealt with or ignored?

Everything seems to be happening rather fast and with little or no consultation with the most effected parties - Us the people, the farmers, businesses, the voters.

But what would I know, Its just "food for thought" Im just a normal average kiwi girl concerned about the world we live in.

I still think NZ should develop the spine to resist this crap. We do not have to trade with China, they have no hold over us.

If we are boycotted by other countries stupid enough to buy into "Copenhagen treaty", then it will only be temporary - we can weather the storm. The alternative is economic suicide and just because other countries are stupid enough to commit economic suicide does not mean that we have to follow "them over the cliff".

We should align ourselves with America, they might be able to resist this garbage. People power is stronger in America than it is here, and so although Obama is "committed to Copenhagen", public opinion just might sway things differently.

Countries will eventually realise that ratifying "Copenhagen" is not a "way out" at all, but a way of further digging themselves into the mire.

In UK although the government is committed to "Copenhagen" as well, the people do not like it generally, and they will eventually make that uneasiness felt. Governments can do any silly thing they like, but eventually if they do not have the support of their people, they will fail. For a pretty recent example we only need to look at Nazi Germany, everything they did was "legal" - legal because they legislated to make it so. But in the end they didn't generally have the support of their own people. The more anti-human rights a government gets, the less support it gets from its people.

I used to come across people all the time who were totally committed to the "Kyoto protocol" (the precursor to "Copenhagen") because they will actually totally convinced that it was about "being responsible" and "saving the planet". Now people are starting to wake up and realise that "they've been had, bigtime".

All it will take is a lot of public pressure, a lot of trouble I know, but it is worth it because we owe it to our kids, grandkids and beyond. It might take a generation, but we have to start it.